How to Encourage Positive Behavior with JoAnn Crohn from No Guilt Mom [episode 40]

Hey, friend, I’m so happy you joined me today. If this is your first time listening, welcome. I’m so glad you’re here. And if you’ve been here before, thank you for listening again, it means so much to me when you take the time to listen to these episodes because I pour my heart and soul into them. I love this podcast. It is my passion project. So just wanted to take a moment to thank you for being here. I wouldn’t be able to do this if I didn’t have listeners listening. So thank you. And today we are talking all about encouraging positive behavior. And this has been a big topic lately. We recently had an episode where we shared all about the gaps in education. I had a two episodes segment, they were episodes number 31 and 33 and 31 we talked about the achievement gaps in education. But in Episode 33, we talked about the social emotional gaps in education. And those we had even more responses we have so many teachers and I share their experiences in their own voices. Be sure to listen to that episode if you haven’t yet. But today we’re talking all about kind of what to do about it. How do we encourage positive behavior even if we are seeing these gaps? No matter where our kids or our own kids or our students are at how do we encourage them to have positive behavior in a positive way. We had a great conversation, and even some fun tangents and the signs that I think you’ll enjoy and find helpful.

And before we begin, let me introduce our guest. So JoAnn Chron is a master’s in education. She is a parenting educator who helps moms feel confident in everything from raising empowering self sufficient kids to dropping the anxiety and guilt on a modern parenthood. She’s an accomplished writer, author podcast host of the No Guilt Mom Podcast and speaker appearing in national media and founder the company No Guilt Mom. Her specialty is talking to both parents and kids with her parenting course calm and happy parenting, and her self paced digital courses for kids in handling big emotions, getting kids to help out more, creating a morning routine, and conquering the homework drama. JoAnn is a former elementary school teacher with a master’s degree in curriculum and instruction, as well as a national board certified teacher in middle childhood education. She is a mom of two kids ages 13 and nine. So JoAnn, as you can see from her bio her professional bio, she is a wealth of knowledge in both education in the classroom and in parenting children. So I’m super excited to be connected with JoAnn; we’ve known each other for a little while we’ve connected in some Facebook groups. And recently, she asked me to be a speaker at a free summit she’s putting on and I’m so excited and honored that she invited me it is called the Be Resilient Summit. And the purpose of the summit is to give families the tools to be kind, manage stress and persevere through challenges. So if you’re a teacher, mom or dad with kids of your own, be sure to check it out. I have a session all about the five pillars of social emotional learning and activities and real vows to use at home. So I will link to this summit in the show notes. It is free, remember, so be sure to check that out. And let’s get started with the interview.

Hey, JoAnn, I’m so happy you’re here on the podcast.

Hey, thanks for having me. I’m excited to be here.

I’m so excited to have you and I’m really excited for the reason you’re here too, your Be Resilient Summit. I’m yeah excited to hear more about that but also about how teachers and especially parents, I know this is more geared towards parents, how we can help with behavior problems and with learning and handling their emotions. So I’m really excited. First off, can you tell us a little bit about yourself introduce yourself to our listeners.

Sure. So I am JoAnn Chron, I’m the founder of No Guilt Mom. But before I founded No Guilt Mom, I was a teacher, elementary school teacher, I taught fifth grade, and I absolutely loved it. And I would have probably still been a teacher today, if not for my son, my second, like, he’s my second born, he was born in July, and I was like, I’m gonna take a year off, because this fourth grade class coming up is crazy. They cannot start with a sub, and then they cannot have me come in and like October sleep deprived from a newborn, like that would not be the best option for these kids. So I took a year off. And during that year, that’s when I started what is now No Guilt Mom. And we help parents just crush parenting by improving communication between family members, and recognizing emotions and kids emotions and validating those and also taking all that shame and guilt off of mom shoulders.

Oh, my goodness, I feel like so many of us feel like shame and guilt. And, and we feel bad, especially for the teachers who are also moms like you feel guilty that like, oh, like, you know, I’m giving so much to my students, what about my kids at home, you know, and just finding that right balance that can be so challenging. So what do you think is causing so many more behavior problems at home for parents?

I mean, I think it’s funny because our society, like expects so much of parents, moms in particular. And we were probably raised, like most of us in the early 90s, or late 80s, where it was our parents were the highway, like, we’re supposed to listen to our parents, we’re supposed to follow their directions. And we weren’t really given much input. nor were we listened to very much what our concerns were like, it was like our kids concerns are kind of secondary, like my dad used to joke around. And I remember this really clearly, he said that children should be seen and not heard. And he was just doing that when I was like mouthing off or something. But it really was kind of what parents thought of was kids like in their 80s and 90s. Well, fast forward to today. And we’re realizing that not listening to kids not really validating emotions leads to a whole line of other issues, including stuff that pops up, especially for women like I don’t know, if you struggle with impostor syndrome, I struggle big with impostor syndrome, with delegating work within the home between like genders struggle with that. And there’s all these things that we’re seeing now our generation as adults, we’re like, okay, but what can we do for our kids? Like, how can we help our kids in this? And so when we see like, more behavior problems in the home, we really want to think about, okay, well, why is this behavior happening? Because the way we were raised, it was like, Okay, well, mom or dad is going to, like, ground us or give us a specific punishment, and we’re not seeing that work anymore. And what we really need to do is figure out okay, what is the issue here? What is holding our kids up? What is the conflict? And how do they view the situation? And then once we know those things, we can work on solving those issues, instead of just looking at it as a challenging behavior overall.

Yes, I think that’s such a good point. Because I feel like our generation of parents, we are seeing like, Okay, we need to listen to our kids. But then it’s like, we maybe weren’t given the example of how to do that, while also balancing like, you know, okay, how do we listen to them, but also have some sort of balance in our home where like, you know, we do have rules that need to be followed and everything. And same with teachers in the classroom. And I know that some are like, Oh, these kids are different, you know. And it’s because of this shift, which you’ve mentioned. So I find that so fascinating. What about teachers in the classroom, who are also seeing this kind of, like I mentioned, like, Oh, these kids are different than they were 20 years ago?

Well, yeah, you mentioned that these kids are different. And it’s all about, like, how we really want kids to interact with each other and how we want them to learn, like, so much of teaching in the classroom now is focused on problem solving. Because back like when we were growing up, like we didn’t have the internet, I mean, it was just coming out, rather. And it wasn’t used to the extent that it is right now. Like, I mean, I remember I had prodigy with like, the dial up, and then we had AOL and like, all those great things, but it wasn’t like the whole world in our hands like it, we could look up any question at any time. So the fact like regurgitation that we did when we were kids, like it’s just not needed now. Now we focus on problem solving and creativity. And when we look at problem solving, and creativity, it’s not so much that we’re raising like factory workers like it was even before our generation, but we’re really raising creative problem solvers. And with creative problem solvers, they do not listen to authority. We don’t want them to just listen to authority mindlessly, we really want them to interact. We want them to reason. And so when we see that kids are different today, we’re seeing that and we’re also seeing probably a difference and attention spans.

Yeah, I was just like talking with my daughter yesterday. She’s 13. She’s a freshman in high school. And she’s like, Mom, can I show you this video? And it was to the cellblock. I can’t remember the song, but it’s a song from Chicago, the musicals Chicago, and she’s really into dance. And I’m like, yeah, like you just sit down and watch Chicago with me someday. She’s like, Mom, I don’t know a whole movie. I get bored during whole movies. Like, are you kidding me? Like, she’s like, I can’t sit still for three hours. And I’m like, but you can you like go short after short after short on YouTube. So true.

Or like episodes a TV is if that’s different. Yeah.

Yeah. And she’s like, a whole but a whole movie mom. I think it’s like true for everybody. Like, all of our attention is shifted, right?

Really has for me, like I mentioned the whole episode on TV. Like, I don’t know, if I have time for a movie before bed, but at time for a TV show, and then we’ll watch three episodes, or that’s as long as the movie would have been, you know.

Yeah, it’s like the terms of commitment, like, not commit to you being focused for an hour and a half on the same storyline. But give me just a little taster. And then I may like, decide to re up every 30 minutes, and it’ll be fine. So funny. What have you heard that teachers are saying like, how are kids different? Because I’ve been out of the classroom now for I mean, my son is nine.

Yeah, so I mean, we talked about this a lot. We did a two episode segment about the gaps in education. So we talked about the learning gaps. And we talked about those social emotional gaps. And we had actual clips from teachers talking about what it’s like. So if you are listening, and you haven’t listened to those go check those out. But a lot of what was said is that one, the kids academically are behind. But even more, so are the social skills, especially were with COVID. Students were out of school for a while, and maybe they were like, out and back in and online and wearing masks, and it’s impacted some of their social skills. So that is a lot of what’s being seen right now. And I think a lot of the problems with social emotional skills that we’ve been seeing are leading to behavior issues in the classroom. So like, we’re seeing more students like talking out of turn, I mean, my daughter is really struggling with that herself. And a lot of students just not even knowing appropriate classroom behaviors. But I know and this is something you mentioned. And so I want to ask you, how do you think chore charts for parents because home are clip charts for teachers at school? How do those hurt kids behavior in the long run?

So for like chore charts and stuff, I’m like all for writing down the chores and making sure like people do them in the house. But reward charts and rewarding for doing it is something completely different. For instance, in my classroom, I used to have a clip down chart for behavior, like and you probably seen these and you’re like, yeah, the clip downs. Where like, you got the green, you got the yellow, or you got the red and the red meant call down. And, you know, I even like for a semester or something. Every time a kid talked out of turn, I’m like, Okay, well, you have to go clip down. And we rationalize this as being okay. They’re getting feedback on their behavior, and they’re quote, unquote, taking responsibility over their behavior.

And they are able to move up versus like the pulling cards, or whatever we were doing before that.

Yeah, like they’re able to move up. But did they? Did they ever move up? No, like this system didn’t help the kids who are really struggling. And usually those kids were struggling with things like sensory issues, and social emotional learning, or learning to like speak when it’s their turn, or learning to read the cues in the room for when it’s an appropriate time to ask the question, like all of these skills that can be broken down and taught. But we don’t necessarily know it at the time, nor do we have time in the classroom to teach it. So when I was a fifth grade teacher, I remember we used to be like just praising the kindergarten teachers at the beginning of the year, because they were the ones who were getting all of the kids acclimated to school. They took these new kindergarteners who had never been in the classroom before and all throughout the year, they were teaching kindergarteners how to like, raise their hands to ask a question, or sit down for like an extended period of time. And they taught the skills very explicitly and in a logical manner. And now it’s like after kids have been out of the classroom for that long, it’s almost like they need to be retaught those skills, the things that kindergarten teachers were doing all along, like all teachers have to somehow pick up that skill set to teach those explicitly. When they’re dealing with increased pressure from their administrators to get the test scores higher, and all of these other things so it’s, it’s crazy. It’s crazy the amount that’s put on teachers in the classroom.

Yeah, it really is. And there’s just so much that goes into it too, because there’s like behavior problems where like, Okay, we don’t want to do clip charts or whatever. What do we want to do? You know, it’s kind of like figuring that out, so do you have any suggestions for that?

It’s so hard because the ideal situation would be that teachers first don’t have as many challenging behaviors to deal with per teacher, you know, so it’s like putting 30 kids in a classroom and having one adult have to get to know all those 30 kids get to know exactly what those 30 kids need, like, it’s a recipe for just disaster and failure, because it’s impossible. The best thing like I would say is that and something that I wish I had done differently as a teacher is instead of going to those kids who are the most challenging behaviors, and I mean, as teachers, you know, you know, the kids that are your most challenging behaviors, they’re the ones like you talk about at home every night, they’re the ones whose names you remember, for years. Instead of like, always, using the school discipline procedure, ours was think time or going to administrator, I would have tried to dig down a little bit more with those kids and ask them questions, and like, figured out exactly like, what their struggles were. And what their as Dr. Ross Greene calls it their lagging skills were in the classroom, like, could they not manage transitions well? Could they not read social cues for when they’re supposed to ask a question? Like, what were those skills that they were missing? And then figure out a way to teach those skills or figure out a way to like, get together with my grade level teachers, and decide and collaborate on how to get those skills to our students, instead of just relying on this punishment and consequence system that we did.

Yeah, so like finding the root of the issue and addressing that, yeah, that’s what can help. And it’s not easy.

It’s not easy. We have a program called calm and happy parenting, where we teach parents how to like drill down and find out what’s underneath the iceberg. And that Iceberg Theory is like we see all these behaviors on the surface, we see like maybe the talking out of turn, we see the defying us, we see the yelling back, those kinds of behaviors are just the tip of the iceberg. But underneath the iceberg, all of these other issues, that if we don’t figure out those, like we’ll never see the top of the iceberg actually improve. And those issues are things like can be as simple as the kids hungry, or they’re angry, or lonely or tired that HALT acronym, or maybe it’s self esteem, or maybe it’s exhaustion. Or maybe there’s like a sensory issue at play where it’s bothering them more than like the typical child because their senses are just amplified and their brain feels like it’s a danger. It’s this idea of neuroception, which is in Dr. Mona della hooks book, beyond behaviors, which I totally love. And how everyone’s brain perceives danger is different, like they perceive dangers differently. So this can be seen a lot with kids who have a really strong reaction to fireworks, their perception of that noise feels dangerous, while it doesn’t feel dangerous to us. And it’s just how their brains interpret danger. So figuring out those things, and working with the kids on coping mechanisms and skills to address those things at the bottom of the iceberg, so that the behaviors that we see the yelling, the talking out of turn, that those will decrease over time. And they’ll also form a better relationship with us as adults because we’re getting to know them and we’re actually helping them with whatever they’re struggling with. And we’re showing empathy and care instead of just handing down a consequence.

I love that iceberg analogy. I feel like that’s so helpful. And it can totally be applied to you know your own students in the classroom but also your own children as a parent and so many of us were teachers were also parents or we have some homeschool moms who listen too, so let’s talk a little bit about how this looks like in the home. So let’s take chores for example. So what do you do if your kids do chores not up to your standards like leaving food on the dishes or dusting not well enough?

So chores are like such a hot button issue in the home. Because a lot of times when we talk about like our standards, we have pretty high standards, I mean food on the dishes, that is a given total given. But sometimes like, my kids will pick up the living room and they’ll like leave a book here and there. And they’d be like, what I was just leaving it there. That was their perception of it. But my perception of it was like, all their personal belongings are in their room. And so in terms of chores, it is always a family conversation. Everything is a conversation. And I suggest to do it through family meetings. So every week, getting the family together, and talking about those issues that are happening in the home. So if something’s happening with chores over and over and over again, that is a great issue to talk about at the family meeting, just being like, Hey, I noticed when the dishes are being washed, there’s a lot of food on them. What’s up? And starting with that really general question not attaching any like shame to it and leaving it open for the kids to respond is a great way to start any conversation. And they might be like, I don’t know, or yeah, there is. And that’s where we can further drill down to really figure out what they think about this situation, what they think about the food on the dish, because maybe we’ll ask them, oh, well, I see like, the cups are clean. But the plates aren’t like, what’s the difference there. And they might point out something like, oh, like, well, the plates, I have this big brush, but the cups I just can’t get it off with like this other brush I have. Or maybe it’s something like the food is just too dried on on the plates to get it off. And I have to scrub really, really, really hard. And so when we find the answer like that, it’s actually awesome. Because we’re like, oh, the food’s scrubbed hard. Well, that means that people aren’t rinsing off their dishes. And we can help as a family, make sure our dishes are rinsed off. And that’ll help you actually clean the dishes better. So when we ask kids those questions, and we get down to like, what is the root cause of it? We actually help solve it versus just giving a consequence and being like, Oh, well, you have to keep scrubbing and scrubbing and scrubbing until you get it off. It becomes a collaborative thing versus a kid’s in it all by themselves thing, which I think that’s how I felt when I was a kid, I felt like I was in it all by myself. And I had to figure it out.

Yeah. And that’s, that’s a struggle when you feel like you’re in it all on your own. It’s kind of like you mentioned, the relationship matters more than getting things done. What does that mean?

So a lot of times, we are just, I mean, we’re so overwhelmed, we have so many things on our plate. And all we want to do is just get it done, like and I get into that mode, too. I go through I see like a mental checklist in my mind of everything that we have to do in the home. And so I start barking up orders, I’m like, Okay, we do this, this and this, and this, and you can hear the stress in my voice. And that is usually when my kids start pushing back really hard. And I think a lot of us have had that experience of just kids pushing back really, really hard. It’s hard for me at this stage in my life to step back with my teenage daughter. And I think that when our kids go through stages, like we’ll constantly be up against another conflict over and over. And keeping the relationship strong looks so differently when you’re dealing with teenagers versus when you’re dealing with elementary schoolers. Like I was a fifth grade teacher. And kids then like they want to help adults, part of them, like wants to be seen as helpful, like, mostly teenagers are like, No way like you cannot tell me what to do, I will do my own thing. And it’s like the shift in behavior. So I just want to like say to any parents out there with teenagers who are like struggling, the struggle is real. And keeping the relationship strong, is more about boundaries with teenagers than trying to ask them more questions about why things aren’t being done the way they should. Like how old are your kids?

Mine? They are eight, six and three.

Those are good ages.

Yeah, they are there. They’re sweet. Love those kiddos of my we’re not to the teenage stage yet though. So I’m just like, you know, preparing for that.

It’s like it’s not bad. There’s many many goods with it. It’s just like it changes your relationship with your child because before where I could have easily pulled out a when then with my daughter, I’ll be like, Okay, well, when the dishes are done, then we can go here. I pull out when then with my teenager, and she’s like, fine, I just won’t do it. And then she goes slams to her room door to her room and I’m like, great, great. This works great.

Sounds like it.

At this stage like is when the relationship matters even more with teens and we’re digging a lot now into I feel like my relationship is like transforming with my daughter, where we’re getting more into adult to adult versus adults child even though she’s very much a child, and she’s the transition to adult to adult. And so I’m sharing more with Hey, like I drove you around and really made your day happen yesterday. And now I am feeling used, where I asked you to do something and you don’t do it. And then she’s like blah blah blah then goes to her room and slams the door again. And then like, a few hours later, she’ll come out and talk to me like, reasonably, but it is constantly apologizing. It is constantly checking myself on my behavior and explaining to her the reasons behind my behavior, versus me being totally in charge all the time with a teenager, we went a little off track, but I just want to throw it out to all those parents of teenagers out there, like it is a transition period right now. And it’s gonna get messy.

Oh, for sure. That’s what I hear.

I was like crying in my room the other day. I’m like, I am so like to my husband, I am so mad right now. I feel so disrespected. And he’s like, yes, yes, yes, yes. And as parents, it’s totally normal to have those feelings, yeah, to get those emotions out and to vent to your partners and to vent to your friends, because this is a trying time.

For sure. So now, what are some things that we can do, whether it’s as a parent or as a teacher to encourage positive behavior in a meaningful way?

So it’s always about leading by your own example. And it’s such a sticky thing, but like kids watch you more than they listen to you. They watch what you do, they watch how you handle situations, versus you giving them ideas on how they should handle their own lives. And so in some respects, like, it’s not to bring on any guilt or shame, it’s really just to give you permission to focus on yourself. Like focus on yourself and focus on like your own moods and your own mental state, make sure you get your rest and make sure you’re having fun. Because when you do those things, and you show your kids like what adult life can be like, versus focusing on them and trying to control how their life should be, it works out so much better, and you’re a happier person as well. So show them, show them how fun it could be and remind yourself that you have permission to spend time on yourself. And it’s actually like the best thing you can do for your kids.

I love that. And I was actually listening to a conference a few days ago, one of the things they said that really resonated with me was, and it was a little bit extreme. I will say that, but he was talking about a form of child neglect is by neglecting yourself. I loved him. He was so good. But the way he said it was it was pretty extreme. But that’s why it hit me so hard is that it was like, you know, you were neglecting your children by saying that, Oh, you can do anything you want. But then yourself, you are holding yourself back or whatever.

Yeah, when I first heard it, like there’s a twist in my gut there because I’m yeah, you’re you are a guy saying this to women. Right? I don’t think you know, the whole scope of things here. Yeah.

But it did make me think I’m like, Yeah, I do want to show especially like, you know, where you talked about, like things can be a bit different for boys and girls. So I’m gonna show my daughter that she can, you know, do whatever she can do. So I mean, that was a little bit of a tangent off what you said.

No, but it’s totally, it’s totally right. Because, I mean, I didn’t want to have kids when we got married, because I saw my parents always stayed home, they didn’t have much of a social life outside of their kids. And I’m like, that’s not what I want my life to be like. And so my husband was the one who really wanted kids. And I saw the potential, like what it could be when we went to go visit some family friends and saw them have great fulfilling lives outside of parenthood. So like it is a real, it is real when parents give up their entire lives for their kids. And kids see it and it makes a mark on them. So what we do when we we give up all of our fun activities to make sure like our kids get all the extracurriculars, or we give up our sleep, or we give up the things we love just because it’ll be a quote unquote inconvenience for our family. Kids see that. And so, it’s so hard because we also like I don’t know about you, but I find myself falling into those traps that I saw modeled for me. Because that’s immediately where your brain goes, you go back to what you know when things get hard. And I constantly have to push against it and figure out how to do the things I want or even figure out what I even want. Because that seems to get a little weird in terms of like when you have everybody asking you questions to do things all the time, like all your kids, and it’s hard to place yourself as a priority as well.

Yes. And I think this kind of leads perfectly into your Be Resilient Summit like why did you create It it. Who is it for tell us about it.

So the Be Resilient Summit I’m super excited about it is all about tools to deal with stress and to talk about emotions, and also how to persevere in those moments where you come up with a challenge. I struggle with anxiety. I didn’t get diagnosed with anxiety, though, until after the birth of my daughter. And then once I started reading, like strategies that help attending therapy, like there’s all those tools out there that I wish I would have known earlier. And the Be Resilient Summit is all about that we brought together 26 experts who are talking directly to kids, you included, I’m so excited to be part of it. So fun, and talking directly to kids and parents together about the strategies that you can use. Like when you’re upset, like we have Debbie Chamberlain talking about breathing. We have a Jill Krause, who like is an OG blogger, she was baby rabies, if you remember that blog, like, oh my gosh, she was like an idol to me when I first started in this space, but she’s talking about the power of affirmations. And what like you say to yourself really matters, and really affects your mindset to like Ned Johnson with test anxiety and how to conquer test anxiety for high schoolers, to tapping with Damiana and Dora. And like, there’s so many great things in this summit that families can learn about and do right away, that gives them the tools to like manage those stressful situations, but also to know that they are not alone in their feelings. And they are not alone when they think they’re being hard on themselves that so many people fall into that. So I’m super excited about the summit, and I’m so excited that you’re in it it is as well. And it’s just going to be a phenomenal event.

I’m really excited to be part of it. And as soon as I heard about it, I was like, Oh, this is going to be so fun. Because usually I’m talking just to the grownups. But you know, as a former teacher, I love being able to talk to the kids too. So we’re able to kind of do these videos that are for like the entire family. So whether you watch it on your own or with your children, or, or even if you show some of the videos like to your class or whatever. Yeah, it’s such an incredible event. I’m really excited for it. And it’s free, absolutely free. We’re going to link to it in the show notes. So you all can go grab your free ticket.

Although I highly recommend the VIP pass. Because we have so much fantastic stuff in there. And you have a bonus yes, you do. And it’s just it’s gonna be a really great time and our VIPs are treated like rock stars during the summer. Like we have special family, our sessions for them and workshops and they get all their questions answered before everyone else. Oh, that’ll be so awesome. I cannot wait to see people in it. I cannot wait to start the event. I think it’s going to be phenomenal.

I can’t wait. Okay, so where can our listeners connect with you as well, like before after the event, they might be listening to this after.

So a great place to connect with me is we have a podcast the No Guilt Mom podcast which I host with my best friend Bree Tucker. And we’re every Tuesday and we also are on Instagram @noguiltmom, and you can visit me at noguiltmom.com.

Awesome. We will put all those links in the show notes and everybody grab your free ticket and then upgrade to VIP if you want. It would be an awesome thing to do. Our 36 weeks of social emotional learning is a bonus if you do that, which that alone is worth at least 30 bucks. So yeah, definitely check that out. JoAnn, thank you so much for coming and being here and taking some time out of your day to share these awesome tips with all of us.

Thank you for having me.